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Original post

Posted by Barrymore, 21.06.2012 - 15:35
It's pretty undisputed that Ukraine and Turkey are the best two nations to pick in Europe+

Any team game will have these two picked first almost as a matter of course and most 1v1s will have one of these nations picked (so much so that there is now a 'No Ukraine/Turkey' rule that players seem to be using.

Buffing Ukraines income (and thus starting cost) has been a popular idea and yet this would be a major breach of the realism which makes the game as compelling as it is. So how do we balance Ukraine and Turkey without impacting on realism? Easy, we just look at what makes them so overpowered.

Turkey is overpowered because it is easily the most populous country in Europe+ and its reinforcements reflect that. It has 39 reinforcements, the next largest nation is UK with 28. It's strengths lay in leveraging it's starting reinforcements (and infantry) to either outexpand its opponent or simply to zerg them down with an unstoppable mega stack.
How do we solve this? We can't reduce its reinforcements because it IS the biggest nation. However we could split it into two smaller nations and add more cities to each.
It's most divided into Agaen and Anatolia. Agaen is Istanbul, Bursa, Izmir and Antalya. Anatolia is the rest. I would add more cities to Anatolia such as Konya, Keyseri, Gazientep, Trabzon. They don't have to be big, but there is plenty of choice for extra cities.
The result is that Agaen Turkey would have 24 reinforcements, the same as Spain. Anatolia (with its current cities) would have 15, the same as Volga. Turkey would be as strong as every other european nation, albeit a bit cheaper... of course since I have a bit of foresight, a cheap 24 pop nation would make Agaen stronger than Ukarine is now... so to avoid that we'd need to buff Agaen income a bit.

Ukraine is overpowered because it has similar reinforcements to a big western nation but much lower income. The result is that Ukraine costs very little to pick and so can leverage this by expanding expotentially as it is not limited by cost nor reinforcements. Buffing Ukraines income is a sensible choice but many players feel it would ruin the realism. Similarly it has a population that justifies its reinforcements. So how do we solve this? By limiting Ukraines expansion.
Russia is not a poor nation, nor is it deserted. Russia Centrals ingame population is listed as 38 million. Ukraines is listed as 42 million. How is it then that Russia Central has only 13 reinforcements and Ukraine has 21? It's completely out of whack.
We solve Ukraine by making Russia Central the power it deserves to be. Buff Voronezh and Yaroslavl, add one or two more cities like Bryansk, Tula, Kursk and increase it's overall income.
The desired result is that Russia Central will be worth more as a starting selection and if not picked it will be defended by infantry and so requires Ukraine to spend more to take it over.

Please ponder this, it's a real shame when threads like REVERT TIMER FONT CHANGE gets more reaction than a genuine attempt to improve the game.
16.08.2012 - 14:34
New idea for balancing Turkey:

Units can no longer move over a neutral city (like how we can't move over enemy controlled cities now).

Instantly fixed Europe+
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Written by Amok, 29.04.2012 at 08:36

Gardevoir, your obnoxiousness really baffles me sometimes...just leave for good already or stop whining.
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18.08.2012 - 05:08
It would probably unbalance some other cities and areas. I would just remove the path near Athens so that you can't get Turkey in turn1.
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18.08.2012 - 12:40
Yeah no, bad idea. Tbh, with the nerf on Ukraine I thought for sure Turkey would become OP but so far it isn't, at least imo. If anyone believes otherwise then I would suggest removing Bursa.
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18.08.2012 - 16:00
Turkey is an absolute beast right now. No one can contest Italy when in a game with Turkey and it has unjustifiably high reinforcements.

If you've got a problem with what I suggest then please bring forward reasonable justification. Now then, merely filling in the gap in Greece is a hamfisted lazy attempt to fix the problem. My suggestion is far more elegant in that it allows the player who controls Greece to use the waterway (like how Egypt controls the Suez) but if you don't control Greece then you don't control the waterway. This means Turkey can't get Rome on turn 1 but will be able to reach Rome from Turkey when it controls Greece. THAT is balance.

And not being able to move over neutral cities is not such a crazy idea. Please name me an area of the map which would be drastically upset if this was implemented. Indeed, this is the kind of thing that if it was in the game from the start we wouldn't even think twice about it and I'd say that opposing it on abstract grounds of 'unbalance other areas and cities' is just opposing change for the sake of opposing change.

I was right about balancing Ukraine by putting Infantry in Russia Central and I'm right about this. Turkey is too good in its current form, it's not as powerful as Ukraine WAS, however now Ukraine has been nerfed to the levels of other European nations Turkey is the sole overpowered nation.
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Written by Amok, 29.04.2012 at 08:36

Gardevoir, your obnoxiousness really baffles me sometimes...just leave for good already or stop whining.
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18.08.2012 - 17:37
 VRIL
Not being able to pass neutral citys? Just for balance? This sounds completely unreasonable if you ask me. I dont see how that would make any sense. Additionally it would cause some trouble expanding in balkans, scandinavia, Japan, Indonesia etc.

Written by Barrymore, 21.06.2012 at 15:35

It's pretty undisputed that Ukraine and Turkey are the best two nations to pick in Europe+

Any team game will have these two picked first almost as a matter of course and most 1v1s will have one of these nations picked (so much so that there is now a 'No Ukraine/Turkey' rule that players seem to be using.

Imo the reason people dont like to see Turkey vs Ukraine anymore is because they got bored of it not because they were so overpowered or unbalanced.

After TB update Ukraine was balanced just right I dont agree at all that it was OP. Of course it was a good country but its main strength was its versatility. You could play a bigger variety of strats with it effectively than with any other country. Ukraine itself wasnt even stronger than turkey. Now with the update you can still use a good amount of strats it just got harder.

Turkey:
Yea, you can reach rome turn 1. So what? It can be useful in some cases but that is so far from OP. If you think there are too many units just substract some reinforcements from Bursa and Izmir and it should be fine.

But I am concerned we are moving in circles here. All in all we had a fairly balanced europe map before. I assume you will agree with me.
Ukr got nerfed but nothing really changed, it still gets firstpicked. And now after that change ofc Turkey appears to be even stronger.
So the next thing to change might be eastern europe vs western europe or?

I fail to see how all this was necessary.
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18.08.2012 - 19:38
A quick addition, that spot of jumping is actually mountainous irl
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19.08.2012 - 02:32
It's necessary because whilst we have a better map we don't have a balanced map. I want a map where the first player to pick in a 3v3 won't put him and his team at a massive disadvantage by not picking Turkey first.

Currently Turkey is the strongest nation in 1v1s AND 3v3s simply because it can dominate Balkans and Italy (two fairly key areas of the map to hold) from the first turn with unstoppable numbers of units. Once it holds these areas it just needs to auto produce infantry and steamroll everything. I don't want to reduce the reinforcements of Turkey as much as removing an entire city (FYI: It's not balance to just remove a 5 pop city, you can just shed 1 pop from many cities) and it's good to have a unique country, however its access to Italy should be limited until week 2 and my suggestion allows this to happen.

As I've said in my last comment, not being able to move over neutral cities is not such a big change and once it happens everyone will get used to it. If I recall correctly (and please do correct me because I'm not 100% on this) we could move over enemy cities until relatively recently and we coped just fine when it got changed.

Why be content with a good map when it could be better. As the defacto Tourney map EU+ needs to be as balanced as possible. For now I'm focusing on Turkey to bring it into line then we'll have a better map. After that I'd like to see more added to R:C and Italy but we'll get to that in time.
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Written by Amok, 29.04.2012 at 08:36

Gardevoir, your obnoxiousness really baffles me sometimes...just leave for good already or stop whining.
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19.08.2012 - 03:25
Not being able to move over neutral cities would be a pain, though i support closing the land bridge in Athens, to maybe have a more balanced map, and for the sake of change.
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19.08.2012 - 04:54
Written by Barrymore, 19.08.2012 at 02:32

however its access to Italy should be limited until week 2 and my suggestion allows this to happen.

So isn't it just easier to remove the path near Athens then to change the thing that is currently working fine, and will affect more countries and not just Turkey.
Written by Barrymore, 19.08.2012 at 02:32

As I've said in my last comment, not being able to move over neutral cities is not such a big change and once it happens everyone will get used to it. If I recall correctly (and please do correct me because I'm not 100% on this) we could move over enemy cities until relatively recently and we coped just fine when it got changed.

Moving over enemy cities was possible for a very short time, a week or two.
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