Thoughts of an oldfag (serious)
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Hello friends.
I joined this game the 14th of April, 2011, officially anyway. I have seen relatively all versions of this game and the events that would transpire, and though I am not evidently active in the community I remain omnipresent in the daily life of the game, through my pack of friends who have also been here from the start. I have come to see the rise and fall of a great many organizations, ones that in their time would believe that they would last for the length of the game itself, and at its stead, SRB, or Kanker, or whatever you may call us stands at the forefront. Though we have come and gone, our presence is felt, and will be felt for time to come, and though it is my opinion we have never been quite as respected as we should have, I ask that you only listen this one time to the words of an old great.
Afterwind, or At-War as you may refer to it(I'll never accept it sry), still suffers from many issues from the time I played, and even still, it has gotten some more. When I log in, there is no feeling of community that it once had, I knew literally everyone who played and though it was quite niche no one had an empty face behind those colored borders. The game mechanics were fluid, simple yet fun to play, with the knowledge of turnblocking to the extent that it was, and that no one will understand lest they played it, it brought the monotony out of simply stacking infantry, and waiting for someone to get bored enough to rush you, or make a mistake 30 turns down the line, it brought a flavored unreliability and unknown factor into the game that I've never seen replicated in any such strategy game, and I deeply yearn for the days when it was still in the game, even after all these years, having truly tried to play all versions successive to it.
The game has become stale, the metagame, though slightly advanced since I played, is too little for any experienced player to enjoy for time to come, everyone grows tired of the same game, and I was well liked in the community for ridiculous innovations, truly I believe this to be the reason I was considered "good", more-so than others, people like myself are few and far between, and I know without us; it will be taxing on all players, and retention will be lower, as we see these days. I will not suggest that it is outright dead, but I will confidently say that it is not as large as it could be, and as it always could have been. PD will always reign supreme, and people will still complain about the same issues until they are fixed, the solution to defense is not to alter the values, but to bring back something that changes up the game from attack vs defense, to bring back Turnblock. At least, that is my opinion, and always has been, and that's all I'll say on that subject.
Upon returning, I noticed a few things, firstly, my legacy; vain as it is, exists only in the form of zizouism, few(Relatively speaking) know of the great community events and divisions that happened between the Dalmati-SRB-WBL-Whatever else rivalry, the clns these days are not so starkly divided, the soul of the game has decayed from a community to simply a game, that happens to have groups in it, for the most part. All old coalitions were removed from the lists due to inactivity, all old players were quickly removed from the rankings due to dilution of ranks, which I will remark on now.
Scenarios. Scenarios. The bane of my existence. Between the map makers guild of AW and the inherent imbalance of SP you get from the games, it has removed every nice point of the pseudo-culture we had on this game, they took the mock RP and turned it into real RP and completely ruined any charm it had to the jokes, then actually made it a real movement to take their already diseased cells and spread them even further into the metaphorical body that is Afterwind. In a matter of months I went from #7 to off the top 50, what took years erased by a matter of months. I wouldn't be so peeved if it wasn't for the next thing I'll touch on.
What this showed, was what I can only perceive as a sheer disrespect for the old guard, and player base who so loyally played their game for years, and offered time and time again to improve it, because its success was as important, if not more important, to the player than the admin. This is not to say Ivan and Amok have some sinister disdain for the old players, perhaps, they are truly unaware of the situation that many of us feel, I have spoken to many friends, former enemies who I once wanted nothing more than to be rekt in vidya, now brothers in feels as we reminisce on the old days; feeling the same concept; yearning for the past, the good old days, that didn't have to end the way it did.
People still complain about the same things. They were attempted to be addressed, but in the wrong way, and instead of going all the way to fix them and make the perfect game you did only a slight patchwork job, isolating your core base and removing their sense of belonging as they were disregarded time and time again. This is not to talk about SRB mind you, if you ask Hugosch, Caulerpa, Kasap, Aristosseur, even god forbid Gardevoir, all of them will have a great many suggestions they felt wasn't taken seriously enough, and the ones they did were not implemented to a degree that you could say is "sufficient". I would say, simply, Amok & Ivan have lost their heart for the game, and so too their players did, and we now look upon a husk of which I cannot describe to those who did not experience beta to pre-turnblock AW.
So to sum up my long post, I do not condemn Ivan and Amok, but I will never understand their decisions leading up to this point, the game was so perfect that I still some years later get strong nostalgia to play again only to be disappointed heavily upon my return, increasing with each repetition. So I ask, since it is my understanding that you have lost your heart for the game, as Admins, shown quite blatantly by the lack of updates for an insane amount of time, is there anything that we the community who still hold the game dearly could do to restore your zealousness?
Whatever this game is, in its current state, I don't want it, and I feel like a lot of people don't want it. You can ask anyone around and I'm sure they'll all have something to say about its current state, and how they wish it would improve. I miss the old days, and though I know they will never return, I was promised into the new version that there would be something to look forward to in its wake, and I'm still waiting for that.
So, an appeal from the community, and if not the community, then just myself, Please Amok & Ivan, how can we assist you? I'd really like to have the game I so enjoyed back.
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It should be mentioned that the 'AtWar' era, in my own personal opinion, has been one of futile attempts to break into profitability through "easy" means, such as cheap F2P and Advertising managers, when instead it should have expended its development team twofold for every X number of active users. Slow updates have always been the bane of this game, and I guarantee that if they had (or could now) be rolled out on a weekly basis, it will generate number higher than any double SP and/or Freemium drive you could ever offer. Furthermore (my own personal opinion here), the community is autistic and hell. I can say for certain that this has been a constant trait (hurrdurr gardefag 2011-2012 r1p 1n p13c3s). Banning people form your maps because you don't like them? Being generally SJW-friendly and politically correct? I didn't know this was fucking kindergarten. In my experience, if some one's trolling the shit out of you, you usually must have done something fucktarded beyond belief to merit that response. Suck it the fuck up and ignore them, a function literally no one uses. Gameplay-wise, I honestly haven't played a serious match in years, due to how fucking boring and meaningless it feels nowadays. There's no strategical aspect in stacking 400,000 Tanks and not understanding the unnecessarily complicated stats and factors that go into winning a damn battle. TBing was an aspect that defined this game, one I personally remebering pioneering against Fruit in our tourney match some years ago. It was removed because "muh shit skills" from the plethora of incoming users not willing to enter a skill gap and learn a fucking game that happened to be really beautifully-played. The admins should have embraced the game's fun glitches, and made them official fucking aspects! How do you think every other game obtains their best traits? Literally through accidents, most of the time (Don't believe me? Go play CM: Beyond Earth, that entire game was literally an accident). ---- Overall, I haven't touched this game since I was still in High School for good reason. Fruit's points are massively truthful and a testament to the state this game is in. Personally, I feel as though there's no going back to those days. I feel that the best alternative at this point, is to simply develop a new game with a premise to the old one, honestly.
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A full post made intend to blame doesn't solve anything. You've missed up the good points of having up custom scenarios. *Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack*Stack* And? What about the good points ? The custom scenarios we can play? I should assume that you had only played Europe+ or something related if you think PD is that OP. I should also assume that you had only played 50k world or RP for say that is easy to stack 400,000 tanks (number that I had never seen, if you can provide screenshot would be good). Have you played Ancient World? or Destoria? or even the 50k world that you are blaming right here? The custom scenarios had opened the door to more players than you think. You might be asking what this have to do with old TB system. Is exactly because Fruit pointed "spammable strategies" which is not what makes you win game. Those games in which you have to play hardcore still exist. I've played one with 92 turns duration just some days ago. This how you all look: "Rush? What a noob. No strategy in it" "Slow roll? What a noob. No strategy in it" "Blitzkieg? What a noob. No strategy in it" "Lucky TB'er? What a noob. No strategy in it" "Lucky rolls? What a noob. No strategy in it" "Tank Spammer? What a noob. PD rules, everything else haves no strategy". (ironic, because Fruit pointed the massive amount of PD players while you are pointing the massive amount of tank spammers.) They all can be resume on this: "He beat me? what a noob. No strategy in it". Dude, a win is a win. Deal with it. If you feel that there is any exploit just use it for godamm sake, nobody cares. Come play with what you call "OP, unbeatable, unbalanced, bla TB system, PD too strong, Infantry overpowered" and you will see how low minded you are. Obvious, I must assume that if you think this game lack of strategy because this Turn Block system, you should win this easy, shouldn't you? Or will you tell me that this is "too much lack of strategy for win" ?
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Nice upvote bait. Old TB system was infuriating sometimes, lets take off the rose tinted glasses for a second shall we? 1 unit constantly tbing much larger stacks was not ok. Instead of going back to old TB, there are plenty of much better suggestions in the ideas forum on how to make a better version of our current tb.
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Fruit, I occupy a fairly unique position in being an aged player that continues to play competitively even to this day. As a senior mod, I've also been actively witness to and have participated in bringing about many of the changes that have occurred. So I figured I'd share my thoughts on some of the issues you bring up here. I think you make a lot of good points. New players probably don't understand the significant backlash that occurred in early 2012 with the new TB system. Along with the ability to walk through all non-city units, this was a fundamental change to gameplay that created a lot of community division. This is actually one of the times when I think it can legitimately be said that some blame goes to the mods. In this case for not giving greater consideration to the naysayers. Players like myself, Caulerpa, and Hugosch believed that the update wouldn't radically alter gameplay as much as we would later learn it did. I also think that you and many of those who opposed the TB update suffered from your own past misbehavior. Even though some of you were making good points, it was hard to take seriously criticism that was being headed by Fruit (king of trolls) and Gardevoir (childish whiner). I believe only Barrymore made consistent constructive criticism in a way that didn't alienate the admins. To quote him "Turn blocking may have been unintended and can be viewed as cheap but it added another level to Afterwind that made it far more engaging (and dare I commit blasphemy) but better than games like Chess because it was not about killing the most units it was about guarding your attack and blocking their attacks, it made the game more like two guys with a sword and a shield battling rather than two guys in a shootout - there was give and take and defence and attack and counterattacks. The game ebbed and flowed. No game I've played has combined attack and defence as well as Afterwind has and it's what's made it such a good game." In the end the admins decided to just wait and see what happened and the power of inertia kept things the way they were. We were correct that the game was certainly still playable and probably even easier for new players and really that was what was important for the admins at the time. As for clan competition you are both right and wrong. I can admit that today the competitive players are stronger and have analyzed the game in absolutely minute detail. Clan activity is better, there are more clans and more of them are competitively active. And yet, in some ways (and perhaps in more important ways) the old days were much more competitive. I for one can confirm that the rivalries you mention in your post were really as amazing as you make out. The Dalmati/SRB clashes were memorable and exciting. When we would CW the whole game would be watching and the pressure was truly at a maximum. And the rivalry extended outside the virtual battlefield to everything (sometimes to the detriment of the game [see TB points above] ). The level of innovation that went on in this era has simply been unmatched in terms of tactics and expansions. So many country/strat combos and tricks that players take for granted today were formed then. We were just coming out of a 2010 AW where even the best players kind of sucked and it was all virgin territory. AW was like the wild west or the frontier and that made the game incredibly exciting. And in spite of the competition there really was a stronger sense of community. How much of that is due to the fact that we were so few players? (30 in the main lobby was a big deal). I can't really say. IMO you are completely right about scenarios. The UN/RP subcultures and the level of unit spam and sp farming these changes brought about negatively changed this game in a way that is sort of irreversible. Go ahead and call me a purist or an oldhag but I've never been able to get into anything more than the occasional Battle for Middle Earth or King of the Hill. I'm not hating on mapmakers (some have pretty amazing skill and they work hard) but to me everything that is truly valuable about AW is already present in that beautiful default map (the map that first made me interested in AW). Have we traded something unique and valuable for marketability? Certainly AW has suffered from some updates that weren't really positive but I think one sums up this issue perfectly, i.e, the decision to call it AtWar instead of Afterwind. One name is completely generic and boring while the other distinct and mysterious. With all that said, I can't say for sure how much of the change that occurred in AW was a result of bad decision making rather than just what would naturally follow from the growth of the game. It's still a great game but yeah, it lost its edge. I figure like all games it has slowly been sanitized, packaged, and made noob friendly because that's just how these things go. I'm not sure anyone is really to blame. Like many old players I've attempted to quit AW many a time but I always find myself coming back. I figure I stick around for two reasons. One, there are people here that I truly enjoy playing with and talking to. Part of the magic of AW that can't be taken away is the truly international culture present here. I really enjoy that. And there's still a really good game here. Free troop movement and team strategy never get old. Two, like you with all the memories I have of old AW there is a small part of me that hopes that maybe one day the game will feel as dynamic and fresh as it used to. I feel some sense of duty as a mod to use what influence I have to make whatever positive changes I can in that direction. I know the admins well enough by now to say they are good and intelligent people so I suppose there's a chance. We can only hope that they reach a point in their real lives when they can take on a more active role in understanding and molding the game.
---- The church is near, but the road is icy... the bar is far away, but I will walk carefully...
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 Well said.
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What a wonderfull post aqui 10/10.fruits also but i disagree on some things. i feel you about the sp farming situation, ranks have lost all meaning and its a shame you guys (old legends) fell off the ranks.That being said most of you never came back from inactivity and when some of you came,it only lasted a couple days/weeks, because in my opinion you didnt want to make the effort to start again from the bottom, since the game had changed drastically and you were all rusty.It hurt your ego to get beaten up by new players and that is the truth, you might as well admit it.I find it natural though and i cant say i blame you, i felt the same after my inactivity break and i feel the same even now in my short absences. Saying that scenarios ruined the game is yes and no.It created some problems but offered alot to the game also, cause some of these scenarios are trully inspiring and great to play.Atwars possibilities with map making are endless.I think it would be wrong to disable that part of the game, because of some bad apples like UN and RP. Is the game no-skill and noob friendly?I loled really hard about this, cause ive played countless of games and i can tell you, quoting the great Tophats, the amount of autism and literally insanity it takes to play this game at the top level and compete is ridiculous.It is a very teqnical game that requires alot of skill to play it efficiently.Anyone who says the opposite is a noob fag like gardevoir or someone not willing to spend the time and energy to compete at the top.All else are excuses. That being said the game has alot of problems and has became stale, i agree.But i am not sure if the solution is as simple as bring the old tb back, ban all scenarios and cut the player population drastically so it feels like a community again.I really hope as aqui said, that a time will come, when the admins start interfering with their game and its community, more.I also hope old players like you, come back and join us, because the truth is, no matter the problems, theres not many games like aw out there.its trully unique..
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Fruit forgot to mention the "4 min turn cancer" ...this is the cause of unit spam and stacking.
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"And time can be such a funny thing. Always moving to the future, glorifying the past and amplifying the pain through frames and glass." - La Dispute
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a post as beautifully crafted as my own, I'm glad I'm not alone my old friend.
this is more or less an issue with the community and not the game, what are ya gonna do?
I would agree with you, except, I am not so prideful anymore, I am a forgotten entity in the game and truly my post is sincere in trying to work towards reclaiming whatever essence I can from old AW that made it so great, I miss it. I am unwilling to the make the effort to return, yes, my ego would be hurt from losing so much; and at the moment of losing 5 games, I think to myself - is it worth it? No, not really, in my opinion. I am also unique however in this regard that I never come back with an empty mind, I jump in just as I was in 2012-2013, as I have friends such as Desu, Pulse(he is not competitive but understands deeply the mechanics), etc. I am always aware of new strategies, techniques, advances; in general. SRB for the most part stayed connected, it is common knowledge by now we have a secret cabal by which we speak to each other daily, Let's not act like it is a super complex game, once you get to a certain point mechanics wise It's all about knowledge of movements and strategies.
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I agree the old tb system added much more flavor to the game, but it made 90% of the whole game depend on the outcome of tbs on the first few turns. You have a very nice strategic game with so much potential but you'll be ruining it with a very simple yet apparently so much effective "tb system".
---- I wf'd UK
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As far as I've understood... wouldn't that tb system be too damn boosted? XD I agree it would be fun but at the same time it must be really frustating!
---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. 
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I understand your position and your feeling about the changes AW went after the TB system change. But I still, as I was by that time, against the idea of bringing it back. For those that weren't here when this change took place and want to understand more about this discussion, I suggest reading these threads: Do you like the new turn-blocking system? Turn-blocking Update (UPDATED) Turn-blocking Update: Constructive criticism
---- "Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms".
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As an early 2012 starter I missed the whole development of the game basics you guys are referring to (and profoundly respected for!). I jumped into a scene where the TB mechanics were already in the process of being changed (mid 2012) and the strategies have been tested and established (some minor changes were implemented later). The first changes I really felt (and lived) was the transition from Afterwind to atWar and it was a thrilling time from my perspective. The possibilities to gain terrain (literally) and make your own custom maps, units and scenarios brought the game to another level. Higher or lower? Beyond Good and Evil; just another level. I guess there is no objective comparison between the two; just some decisions (implementations and non-implementations) that may be regret by some players (fully respected and partially shared) and welcome by others (that enchant me by their love this "new" game). All I can say, from my current position, is that AW managed to establish a platform that can account for the diversity of interests manifest by the members of this community (or communities?): scenario players, competitive players, competitive scenario players, SP hunters, map makers, scenario architects, trolls and assholes... all of them have a tiny little domain in this archipelago called atWar.
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You managed to say so much without managing to say anything specific. I would expect you to be much more specific in what you want changed. I started playing this game since 2011 as well. I still remember the days when you used to get capped turn 1. Since then I think the game has changed a lot. strats have changed, tb have changed. If you are complaining about the RP and other noob scenarios , thats not problem for you and me to solve. I know players in this game who like to play the game without anyone else lol . I know players who only like to play scenarios and don't like normal world map games. Everyone is different and have their own ways of enjoying the game. Who are you or me to say otherwise. This game gives you all the tools to enjoy the game the way you want. You don't like the default map : go make your own map,You don't like the current units stat distribution: go make your own map with all new units. Its all upto YOU to do what you want and enjoy the game your own way. I still play the game because of the excitement of team games that I feel are still too much fun. Yes I agree the game haven't improved/changed much in the last 1.5 years and that's why it feels boring now. Maybe you could give some ideas about new upgrades and strategies that can make the game more interesting. But at the same time I feel this game is better than it ever was.
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AW: an online strategy game, home for a diversity of cultures and micro-communities, including trolls and assholes. You're all welcome to your new home: troll us as much as your trolling skills are capable of and bring out your inner asshole while bragging about it to the whole wrold! (Note: you can also conquer the whole world while bragging about being an asshole) 
---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people.
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---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people.
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As for SP farmers, I think the problem was at least 90% solved with the SP reduction update.
---- "Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms".
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So if you really felt it... do you remember TopHats rank 6 in AW alpha, Utah renaissant world and me rank 4? 
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I'd like to have turnblock tested again in a separate server, to see what metagame changes arise, what strategies fall out of line and which ones flourish. I think, as many of my old friends do, that turnblock was a welcome glitch, a bug or unintended feature that added a new layer to the game. When looking into a single feature, it's often very easy to get tunnel vision and disregard its impact on the rest of the game. Citing an example, Starcraft: Broodwar had terrible unit pathing (compared to it's successor), sometimes it was a pain to get a single unit up a cliff. However, this unintended feature created two things: 1) mining bases often started getting more inefficient the more miners you had working on them; thus making you get another base; thus creating more area for you and your opponent to fight over and overall creating a more back and forth game, with fights all over the map. 2) Since the units were further apart, battles lasted longer, you could control your units during clashes with more ease and the end result was a game with an insane skill ceiling, but very low skill floor and much more forgiving than its successor. In my opinion, these kinds of accidents must be cherished and embraced. Turnblock made strategies with more expensive units way more viable than today, and I'd love to see an experiment with it being brought back. However, this alone wouldn't bring back AW. As Gardevoir said, "slow updates have always been the bane of this game, and I guarantee that if they had (or could now) be rolled out on a weekly basis, it will generate number higher than any double SP and/or Freemium drive you could ever offer". We understand that they're in the process of working on the HTML 5 version, but how about a few blog posts describing how's the current development? Or a blog post talking about a specific implementation of a specific feature? More communication would give the community a sense that something's coming. More frequent updates with huge game changes would make a big part of the old playerbase come back for more.
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...or simply make it a modifiable option. Rather than have one or another, we should have both
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Friendly tunder3 rank 5 
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It would be even harder to implement than creating test server.
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okay, but if the test delay much or players simply can't agree to which one is better.... can we have both? It will probably happen on HTML5 I guess....
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The problem? Don't be a hypocrite Fruit please, the problem with AW is the mods. The old mods got jobs and got replaced by acquiesce, caulerpa and pinheiro. Even sificvoid was a better mod than say hugosch and for the love of god, VRIL. I saw the whole thing develop, fuck, I once exploited a glitch to access forum id 09 and I saw it all. The admins would blindly believe every absolute word a mod such as caulerpa would say, and every new mod had to be recommended by those already inside, so, guess who dictated the new updates and such? Mods. I saw it, I lost all my SS's when my hard drive died last year, but take my word that I saw it all being cooked indoors and then sugar coated and sold as community idea. All the blame can be taken by caulerpa, hugosch and pinheiro. Caulerpa? smuggled in a bunch of his friends into the moderation team, was obsessed with taking Empire SRB down, made LOADS of unfair bans and especially would step in to defend his mod friends when they made a clearly unfair ban. He didn't really care for the game mechanics as long as he could win and farm noob coalitions. Hugosch? He didn't know a thing about the game, once a PD player when it was OP, it got nerfed and the turnblocking thing rose. He kept making a bunch of suggestions while not really knowing how to play the game. Pinheiro? He didn't care, he simply banned people because he could when they pissed him off. Then he became butthurt when he saw the consequences of his actions and "wanted to be demoted" in order to play the game like an actual player. Acquiesce? He was hugosch's or caulerpa's buttbuddy, I don't exactly remember which, but basically a yes man who would support every bad move of the mod team as they grew in power and members who cocksucked the older members. VRIL? Another retard who would be even more lose than Pinheiro with the bans, only he didn't go as noticed because it came in a time where every active mod was abusing power. It's your fault, admins, you got tricked like a 16 year old girl into sucking cock.
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Nice way to try to turn a valid discussion into another hate thread. I won't delete your post, despite it has nothing to do with the thread itself, but I won't allow any further unrelated posts. Create your own thread if you have anything specific you want to complain about mods, but let the useful discussion continue, please. As for the part involving me, I'm pretty confident about my duty as a mod, but you have the right to think whatever you want, just express it in the right place and perhaps I can try to argue with you.
---- "Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms".
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I know that asking for too many game features is bad, but, how hard would it be, really, to have flowerpower (via the toggling of single-unit-collisions) and turnblocking (maybe with a slider determining the likelihood of the turnblock) as options? Or even a "classic" game mode, like other popular online games have? There's nothing I can add on to Fruit's post that would be constructive; I agree with all of it. If turnblocking can be enabled through settings before the game starts, that would bring back a large part of the old userbase, and, because of the increase in depth, promote player retention. I don't think that discussing AW moderation will contribute anything to this thread. The Reddit-eqsue thumbs-up button is strange, though.
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