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Original post

Posted by Permamuted, 22.10.2014 - 22:39
The following is a complete guide on turnblocking, complete in that it contains all known knowlege regarding tbs. it seems to be 1 subject in the AW community which few players feel they have a complete understanding of. This guide is aimed at hopefully correcting that. I had kept it soley in Illyrias clan forum up until now but i have decided to release it.

Some of the following information will be pulled directly from posts and guides from both hugosch and tophats. The rest will come from my own observations and testing with other players. If you've any additions or corrections please post below.


Basics


To know how turnblocking works, its very important to know how 'move priority' works. All movements are prioritized according to the order of players actions meaning, your first action will move first. So if you want to turnblock an enemy stack, you have the biggest chance if your first move is a turnblock. Time does not matter in this case, it only matters with what unit you move first. Cancelled moves don't count.

The turnblocking works like this:
Chance to turnblock = to the difference between you and your enemies troop counts
Chance % = your units count / opponent units count
Example:
You have 3 Militias and your enemy has 10.
3/10 = 30 % Chance
This will work upto a max of 50%. So even if you match or send more troops than your enemy, there is a 50% chance he will avoid.

That is unless your priority is higher than them, because then the chance to turnblock doubles so with the same situation, yet you moving before the enemy does.
In the Example
(3/10)*2 = 60%
This will work upto a max of 99%.

In the case of turnblocking up to 4 units on an equal priority move, a 1 unit tb will have a 50% chance of turnblocking, as opposed to the 25% you might expect. This is ONLY in the case of tb attempts on up to 4 units.

Turnblocking Transports


Turnblocking involving naval is a little different and is something many in the community do not understand fully. According to other guides on turnblocking on the forums and news updates by Ivan and amok themselves, when attempting tbs on naval trans, the units inside the trans are not counted into the tb% chance calculation. However i had always thought otherwise due to what id seen in game, and after carrying out tests i came to conclude that the units were indeed counted in the calculation. I sent Screenshots of the tests to Ivan and he replied with this.



I had always believed the tbs on beached transports included the units inside in the tb calculation and tbs on unbeached trans(trans at sea) did not. However my tests have shown whether beached or unbeached, the Units in the trans are definitely counted in the tb % calculations.

The following screenshots are of tests of tb attempts on unbeached and beached trans. The units were moved into the trans and then to a new location in order of from right to left, and the tbs were carried out on the trans in order of from right to left. Note that the 1 unit tbs all failed, and in this instance, the 8 unit tbs all succeeded. While only 1 set of screenshots is provided, many of these tests were carried out multiple times to expected results.













So for now, until Ivan and Amok reveal new updates to this, when attempting tbs on trans, the units in the trans count in the tb % calculation whether the trans is beached or at sea. so if youre attempting to tb a full naval trans, send 8 units for a full 50% tb chance, 8/16*100(assuming equal priorities). your 1 unit tbs might work if your opponent doesnt priorities his moves correctly, or if you are extremely lucky.

For tbs on airtrans, the units do not count in the tb % calculation, so there is no issue there. a 1 unit tb will suffice(or 2 units to ensure you actually kill the airtrans).


Turnblocking Involving Stack Merging


We have all been in a situation where we've attempted to merge units from several locations into one big stack to attack a target, only to find the next turn the entire stack hasnt moved or has moved but not reached the intended destination, or worse in the case of stacks containing a general, the general has went on a solo suicide mission leaving all the troops behind.

This is due to turnblocks on components of the main stack which you merged from other locations.

For example, say if you were moving 2 stacks of 10 inf from different locations to a main stack of 80 inf, then you moved the entire stack to a new location. If one of the stacks of 10 inf are tb'd the entire stack will not move.

In the case of merging different unit types into a main stack, if you merged say 10 milita and 10 inf into a main stack of 40 inf and 40 milita, then move the new merged stack to a new location. If the 10 milita are tb'd only the infantry in the main stack will move to the new location. Similarly if the 10 inf are tb'd, only the milita will move to the new location.

This can be seen in the following screenshots. In the first screenshot there are 5 inf in romania and 10 in bulgaria. i merged the 5inf into the main stack and attempted to attack macedonia. i tb'd the 5 inf in romania using 5 bombers, after performing some other moves in order to ensure the tb had a 100% chance of succeeding.



The 5 units were tb'd, so the main stack did not move.

This however can be countered if you suspect the tb attempt on that location and want to ensure the 10 inf at least reach the target. In the following screenshot, i imerged the 5 inf into the main stack of 10 inf to make 15 inf, then i took 10 inf from the main stack in bulgaria to attack macedonia, before sending the remaining 5. The results are as follows.



The 10 inf made it to the new location, inspite of the 5 inf being tb'd. This is one method to counter tbs that you suspect may be sent on locations youre merging units from. Although this is a difficult counter to apply in actual gameplay.

The next screenshot involes merging a stack of 5 tanks 5 inf from romania and cluj to a stack of 10 tanks 10 inf in bulgaria and then moving them to Albania. The tb was attempted on the tanks situated in cluj.



notice how only the infantry made it to albania? This is also the cause of your general sometimes going on solo suicide missions, he is counted as a different unit type.

Turnblocking Your Opponent


Turnblocking is a very important part of gameplay, if you ever play any of the truly good players of atwar, you will notice that if you dont prioritise your moves correctly they will crucify you with tbs. slowing expansion and attack. When attempting tbs on an opponent, always attempt a 1 unit tb on their main stack(usually includes their general) or stacks. If they have to separate the stack out to complete multiple moves that 1 unit tb could prevent the later moves from being completed.

if you expect attacks on an area, or indeed a rush on your cap, often a 1 unit tb on their main stack or port isnt your best bet. particularly if the other player is knowlegeable and knows how to reduce the risk of being tb'd. If your opponent has to merge troops from other areas often a 1 unit tb on these areas is a better choice at stopping the entire stack. If you know they havent enough troops to cap you that are visible, then they will HAVE to pull troops from elsewhere, and this is where your best bet of stopping the stack is.

Another point of note is knowing when not to attempt to turnblock. For example you have several stacks to move to a target location, they will almost definitely attempt to turnblock you. you cant afford any of your stacks not reaching the target location. for every tb you attempt you give their tb attempts a higher % chance of success. So be careful.


Avoiding Turnblock Attempts


There are many precautions a player can take in order to reduce the risk of being turnblocked.

  • Walling - This is the most important tool a player has to avoid a turnblocking attempt on a stack, its simple, if your units are walled they cant be turnblocked. If youre moving units to a location in order to attack a target. wall them.
  • Move Prioritisation - Always watch your move prioritisation, if you're trying to decide which stack to move first, consider which would be more devastating to have tb'd, then work from there. Walled units should be the LOWEST priority on your list of moves as there is no chance of them being tb'd(unless you merge other units into them from an unwalled location)
  • Moving the components of a merged stack from several unwalled locations separately. ( as shown in the stack merging tb section)
  • When separating out a stack of units that you know the opponent will attempt to tb, move the stack out of the city before separting it to different locations. If you attempt to separate the stack from inside the city, you risk some of your moves getting tb'd and not going through.


you also have the option of moving a stack out of the Location likely to be tb'd - If you have to move units from several unwalled location to a primary port, for example istanbul in turk to attack kiev, theres a simple trick to avoid a tb on the istanbul port. Move the trans and the units outside the port and merge from the other areas into there.



Using the TB system defensively and walling


- You can use the tb system defensively. What i mean by this is shifting units around into locations your enemy can/will hit. Be careful though if your opponent is making more moves than you you'll get latemoved. This is at the end of all your main moves and you have range still on units sent to defend cities. An example would be a PD germany player trying to retain his full country bonuses. If there is range remaining on the infantry defending he can shift them to other cities. if any are hit the units will be tbd there defending it. Another example would be a turk player trying to retain the balkans shifting his units around serbia/bulg/hungary/romania as his last move in case any are hit by an agressive ukraine. It is little tricks like this that separate a good player from a great player.

- You should also use this to avoid latemoves. It can be very tempting to empty a city completely to maximise expansion, for example as ukraine with russia central. Having moscow latemoved off you hurts due to the income reset. If you are going to risk shifting all units out particularly the defensive ones. Do it as your last move.

- Always build walls on cities/targets that are at risk of attack as a last move. I'm sure every high rank has experienced times where using defensive units to make a wall cost them that city.

- Previously after a clan war I screenshotted my movements as UK at the end of a turn to show how much micromanagement I put into a country. The lower ranks were surpised by how much i had done as theyd consider UK a country that takes very little time. I had shifted units around to defend all the cities. I'd stacked london and then moved those units out to form walls and perform actions elsewhere. It's little things like this that separate the good players from the great.

Intercepts


- If you've 3 transports on the coast you know an enemy will try to tb, its risky moving them all close to your stack and then filling them as a bomber or a unit with the necessary range will follow them to a new location and tb them there. Leave 1 transport behind and the tb units will not follow. This also applies to stacks in the open. Tb units dont follow stacks that are in cities and then moved out.

Please see Witch doctor's guide on intercepts for further information. https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=33026

FAQs:


What counts as a move?

- Moving troops from A to B(obviously)

- Zigzagging a troop stack counts as one move. For example this is one move.



- Unloading troops from a transport naval or air counts as a move.


Are troops produced in a city containing other troops counted in the tb calculation?

Yes they are, troops produced in a city are not counted as a move. So no matter at what point in the turn you produce the troops in the city theyll be taken into account in the tb % calculation of any tb attempts on that city.


Let say I am trying to TB 10 infantry

1st move I send 1 unit from one place
2st move I send another unit from other place
3st move I send 5 units from another place

What are my chances of sucess? and do I have 3 different chances or they get mixed up


I believe the % chance of tb would be 70/2/2 so 17.5%, all 7 units would be counted as a third priority tb attempt. However it would take me 100s of tests to form any reliable conclusion on this. What i do know however, is that you wont have a 70% chance of tb, the units sent wont be counted as a first priority tb attempt. Either the tb % chances are summed up or the tb % is all calculated from the last move. Whatever the case may be it is not very important for gameplay.

What are "untbable transports"?

https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=16986

This about wraps up the guide and sums up all the known knowlege involving tbs. please post any questions, additions or corrections below.
23.11.2015 - 11:46
Written by clovis1122, 23.11.2015 at 08:39

Not complete guide

Here goes another question. Suppose I have one stack of troops and my enemy have another stack of troops.

I move my stack of troop as first move and my enemy tries to TurnBlock it and fail.

but after I moved my stack, I split it into two and send them somewhere else.

What would happen? Would my enemy follow my stack and attack it? After or before I split it?

Thanks in advance


As i have stated multiple times, i'm not updating it until html is more ironed out. Probably in the new year.

A tb will only follow units to a new location if the stack is still in range of the tb unit. You'll notice this mainly with bombers. this is only for stacks/units in the open. If a stack is in a city it will never get followed to a new location.

To answer your question, the stack will either get tbd at the original location or, if in range of the tb unit, before you split it with a part of the stack getting tb'd. The most common scenario youll see this in is with trans.
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15.12.2015 - 10:25
Excellent news, can't wait to have an updated guide to fully understand this critical concept. That will reduce the frustration quite a bit (at least, for people with a short fuse like me) and improve the strategic potential of the game! Thanks!
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20.12.2015 - 02:01
I have yet to see "turn blocking" used successfully in a game with many moves.
Every time someone has tried to TB me, all they did was lose needed units.

When someone was successful with a TB, it didn't change anything. It just meant
that when the stack finally attacked their defenses the attacker had
even more units to throw at the TB player and the TB player
had bled his units to a lower level.
Almost all games give a player plenty of time to beat the opponent. NOw if the
game has only a few moves left, yeah TB could possibly help. possibly.

However, assuming a regular 50 turn -100 turn game.

I recall using TB against a higher level player (ILU) and ILU referred to it as:
"wasting ur units by
noobing them at a stack U can't possibly win the battle in."

Compare this to reality; lets say player blue has a stack of 25 units. Red thinks that blue
will attack him. Red decides to TB by sending a kamikaze attack of 10 militia units.
Red's TB is successful
except Red now has lost 10 critical units needed for defense and blue will wall and hit
red again, and now blue will almost always have an even bigger unit advantage over
red.

WTF good was it for Red to waste 10 units in a TB?

The times players have succeeded in TB'ing me have never changed the outcome.
The kamikaze TB'er has always lost. Every single time.

On the other hand, when I've turnblocked my opponent, it has never changed the outcome.
I lost.

there's got to be something to this tactic that i'm missing.
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/s/ Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss
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20.12.2015 - 03:48
Written by GodluvsUbaby, 20.12.2015 at 02:01

I have yet to see "turn blocking" used successfully in a game with many moves.
Every time someone has tried to TB me, all they did was lose needed units.

When someone was successful with a TB, it didn't change anything. It just meant
that when the stack finally attacked their defenses the attacker had
even more units to throw at the TB player and the TB player
had bled his units to a lower level.
Almost all games give a player plenty of time to beat the opponent. NOw if the
game has only a few moves left, yeah TB could possibly help. possibly.

However, assuming a regular 50 turn -100 turn game.

I recall using TB against a higher level player (ILU) and ILU referred to it as:
"wasting ur units by
noobing them at a stack U can't possibly win the battle in."

Compare this to reality; lets say player blue has a stack of 25 units. Red thinks that blue
will attack him. Red decides to TB by sending a kamikaze attack of 10 militia units.
Red's TB is successful
except Red now has lost 10 critical units needed for defense and blue will wall and hit
red again, and now blue will almost always have an even bigger unit advantage over
red.

WTF good was it for Red to waste 10 units in a TB?

The times players have succeeded in TB'ing me have never changed the outcome.
The kamikaze TB'er has always lost. Every single time.

On the other hand, when I've turnblocked my opponent, it has never changed the outcome.
I lost.

there's got to be something to this tactic that i'm missing.


i would explain to you but i am an evil, degenerate atheist with no moral compass, so i will just summon Laochra and leave you with this.

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20.12.2015 - 20:43
Written by Khal.eesi, 20.12.2015 at 03:48

i would explain to you but i am an evil, degenerate atheist with no moral compass, so i will just summon Laochra and leave you with this.

I was gonna explain to him... until I saw this... did he actually call you that?
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Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you.
We're all people.

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12.01.2016 - 03:15
How does the mechanics in which your units ends outside of your city happens?
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25.01.2016 - 09:08
The turnblocking works like this:
Chance to turnblock = to the difference between you and your enemies troop counts
Chance % = your units count / opponent units count
Example:
You have 3 Militias and your enemy has 10.
3/10 = 30 % Chance
This will work up to a max of 50%. So even if you match or send more troops than your enemy, there is a 50% chance he will avoid.

I have recently talked to some players who tell me that TB chance can go well above 50%. My only reference to TB mechanics is this guide, as I am still learning the mechanic of this game I just thought I want ask if it has been confirmed that TB chances can go above 50%? And if this should be updated at all to reflect that.
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25.01.2016 - 09:42
Written by Prometheus, 25.01.2016 at 09:08

I have recently talked to some players who tell me that TB chance can go well above 50%.


Read the next paragraph:

Quote:

That is unless your priority is higher than them, because then the chance to turnblock doubles so with the same situation, yet you moving before the enemy does.
In the Example
(3/10)*2 = 60%
This will work upto a max of 99%.

In the case of turnblocking up to 4 units on an equal priority move, a 1 unit tb will have a 50% chance of turnblocking, as opposed to the 25% you might expect. This is ONLY in the case of tb attempts on up to 4 units.
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25.01.2016 - 10:46
Thanks Clovis, sorry I should have been more clear. I was told that even for my first move, meaning turn priority should make at best a 50% chance of me being TB, I could be TB at higher than 50%. And this seemed to be true as my first move was TB 5 or 6 turns in a row I think.

It was critical doing it to me btw in a duel.
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26.01.2016 - 08:41
Total annihilation doomstack. Fe) 20 tank should always have 100%. TB chance against 5 infantry. As first move. It exist.
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26.01.2016 - 15:21
Written by Prometheus, 25.01.2016 at 10:46

Thanks Clovis, sorry I should have been more clear. I was told that even for my first move, meaning turn priority should make at best a 50% chance of me being TB, I could be TB at higher than 50%. And this seemed to be true as my first move was TB 5 or 6 turns in a row I think.

It was critical doing it to me btw in a duel.


on equal priority moves the tb % will never be higher than 50%, critical was just lucky. Idk what hes talking about
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10.03.2016 - 17:45
I have a few questions, sorry if they seem silly.
1. Is there any way to insure a 50% TB chance 100% of the time?

2. If I cancel a move, (you said "canceled moves don't count"), does that mean that I can make another move as my first move after canceling a move that was previously my first move? Or does it not work that way?

3. Can Player A TB Player B's reinforcement of a city? What I might be trying to say is: If Player A attacks a city first move, and Player B reinforces that same city, would Player A then keep Player B from making units in that city? Or would Player B's units in the city be possibly TBed from going anywhere and thus forced to defend the city?

4. Sometimes, I tried to TB a stack of my opponents men. I have seen my TB units fail the TB but follow my opponents men to their destination. Is this a bug? I have not been able to recreate this at all, but it has happened a few times. If this isn't a bug, how would I recreate this? (I hope this question is somewhat TB related, if not I will move it.)

That's all for now, and thanks for the thread, it helped me quite a bit in understanding TB's. While I don't understand them completely yet, I'm starting to get the hang of it.
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10.03.2016 - 18:08
Written by Zenith, 10.03.2016 at 17:45

I have a few questions, sorry if they seem silly.
1. Is there any way to insure a 50% TB chance 100% of the time?

Answer: Send 1/2 of his stack count.
i.e. If he has 10 tanks, send a minimum of 5 units, anything more is just bonus attack.

Ratio of 2:1, for every 2 troops of his send 1 of your own to ensure 50% TB chance.
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Be Humble
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10.03.2016 - 19:43
4 is intentional, if units have range to follow and dont tb they will. This can be used to reinforce a city you own walled by the enemy if the enemy attacks with thier walls

Also for tbs in general i would not view this as an exact science. I have had some wierd cases where i move a whole stack first move and then divide it in later moves with some not going through
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17.08.2016 - 07:43
Hi,

It is mentioned that units in a naval transport count in the TB chances, but units in an air transport don't. What about ground transport, for maps allowing it? Anyone knows?

Thanks
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08.09.2016 - 23:37
Soldier001
Account deleted
Written by Noir Brillant, 17.08.2016 at 07:43

Hi,

It is mentioned that units in a naval transport count in the TB chances, but units in an air transport don't. What about ground transport, for maps allowing it? Anyone knows?

Thanks

units in any transport count in the tb chances.
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08.09.2016 - 23:43
Written by Guest, 08.09.2016 at 23:37

Written by Noir Brillant, 17.08.2016 at 07:43

Hi,

It is mentioned that units in a naval transport count in the TB chances, but units in an air transport don't. What about ground transport, for maps allowing it? Anyone knows?

Thanks

units in any transport count in the tb chances.


you tested it? Definitively doesn't for air transports....

Also just realized that the guide has lots of inaccuracy. The formula for TBs is wrong, the stack merging theory is incomplete and several TB tricks (mostly based in the stack merge theory) are either wrong or counterproductive.
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08.09.2016 - 23:50
Soldier001
Account deleted
Written by clovis1122, 08.09.2016 at 23:43

Written by Guest, 08.09.2016 at 23:37

Written by Noir Brillant, 17.08.2016 at 07:43

Hi,

It is mentioned that units in a naval transport count in the TB chances, but units in an air transport don't. What about ground transport, for maps allowing it? Anyone knows?

Thanks

units in any transport count in the tb chances.


you tested it? Definitively doesn't for air transports....

Also just realized that the guide has lots of inaccuracy. The formula for TBs is wrong, the stack merging theory is incomplete and several TB tricks (mostly based in the stack merge theory) are either wrong or counterproductive.

well i have tested it like a year ago and i have got myself tb 64 stack with at+3inf pretty sure would be impossibleif it only counted at as tb units, but they might've changed it i am not sure since HTML5 version i didn't test shit
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27.02.2018 - 17:10
1st
2st
3st
Pro guide
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"You're aren't " - epic backflip
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18.03.2020 - 10:13
Someone should update this. Urgently
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23.04.2020 - 09:45
Is there yet any actual basis and understanding of the code behind turnblocking?
An accurate guide would be very useful. As far as I can understand number of your units vs theres into a direct percentage of chance to turnblock is not accurate. Ive seen many moves where a stack of 1 can tb a stack of 200 which seems an impossible chance yet happens often.
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23.04.2020 - 13:41
Written by lsilorien, 23.04.2020 at 09:45

Is there yet any actual basis and understanding of the code behind turnblocking?
An accurate guide would be very useful. As far as I can understand number of your units vs theres into a direct percentage of chance to turnblock is not accurate. Ive seen many moves where a stack of 1 can tb a stack of 200 which seems an impossible chance yet happens often.

You gotta remember that not only the amount of units count, but also the movement priority given to those units.

We'd need an admin to unveil the holy secrets of turnblocking to fully understand I guess
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Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you.
We're all people.

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26.04.2020 - 16:50
Written by clovis1122, 08.09.2016 at 23:43

Also just realized that the guide has lots of inaccuracy. The formula for TBs is wrong, the stack merging theory is incomplete and several TB tricks (mostly based in the stack merge theory) are either wrong or counterproductive.


Can you elaborate on this? I'll update this guide. I know what you mean regarding the counterproductive tricks. There are things i deliberately omitted in order to keep people from learning my gameplay and punishing me for it. I'll add everything now.

I'll also link to your thread on un-tbable transports. I consider this a bug but while it exists people should know about it and use it if they wish until it's fixed. Many people will use it without realising.

https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=16986

Edit:

Ok so I have added a new section called "Using the TB system defensively and Walling". It's things like this imo that separate the good players from the great players. I've also included a link to Wd's guide on intercepts which I had only briefly mentioned.
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03.05.2020 - 12:57
Written by Permamuted, 26.04.2020 at 16:50

-


for the new sections.

Regarding the TB formula, this thread might be the most useful: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=28465. The key is Ivan's explanation about how the movement priorities work.

Regarding interception and the stack theory - I actually made a research month before WD. Please take a look as it includes some missing pieces: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=29233. There're some tricks that I have in mind mostly involving merging units outside cities like, how to attack if you're not TBED, but stop your attack (including gen from going solo) if any of your stacks get tbed. Those are great ways to work around the probabilities.
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04.05.2020 - 10:41
Written by clovis1122, 03.05.2020 at 12:57

Regarding the TB formula, this thread might be the most useful: https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=28465. The key is Ivan's explanation about how the movement priorities work.


That post by Ivan is so confusing. He seems to be explaining how the game sorts through the moves of multiple players. But that doesnt have anything to do with their individual % chance of success on a move. Your tests with WD are interesting though. Those contradict what both Amok and tophats have said in the past.

Is it not possible to simply view the code and figure out how the system is supposed to work from that? Or is it too complex...
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04.05.2020 - 21:58
What does priority refer too
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13.10.2021 - 14:06
Written by Permamuted, 22.10.2014 at 22:39

What counts as a move?
- Moving troops from A to B(obviously)
- Zigzagging a troop stack counts as one move. For example this is one move.
- Unloading troops from a transport naval or air counts as a move.


According to discussion with Dave here (=> https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=48072), manually buying reinforcements in a city counts as a move as well. Since this thread serves as an official guide, it would be neat to mention it here...
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13.10.2021 - 17:55
 brianwl (Admin)
I still refer to Dave's essay first..
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13.10.2021 - 21:10
Written by brianwl, 13.10.2021 at 17:55

I still refer to Dave's essay first..

I'd be interested in reading this essay. Would you mind sharing the link please?
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16.10.2021 - 08:03
Written by brianwl, 13.10.2021 at 17:55

I still refer to Dave's essay first..


Oh: https://atwar-game.com//forum/topic.php?topic_id=44795&page=2

Will read that soon.
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